(sharing a bible based faith without having to use the bible to support it)
It should also help emphasize what a friend of mine once said,"Precision in language is precision in thought.".
Here's a link, in case you missed it: Failure in the Victory Garden: Truth in the Trees Oct 05, 2012
This is a facebook exchange with a page called "Christian Bigotry Kills" (CBK below) that is still on going. If it's relevant, I'll update this post to keep current.
My Responses are in bold
I'm RE when I comment or Roberto when I'm being addressed.
Here's a link in case you want to join the dialogue or just check it out.
Click here for the link
Status: (Graphic with text) - If rape babies are a gift from God, should these convicted rapists be released for doing God's will?
72 people like this. (so far) and 282 Shares Wow!
--------------------------------------------------
BK
tell the truth, ain't it though
--------------------------------------------------
HMB
Whoa! People actually believe raping is God's will? Boy, they outta line big time!
--------------------------------------------------
CE
i dont like this!!
--------------------------------------------------
HMB
I know! Why would raping be God's will? The hell? Dude! That's just wrong on so many levels!
--------------------------------------------------
LH
It's just showing how twisted that line of logic is, especially if you continue to follow the line of it...
--------------------------------------------------
JG
i wasn't aware that odd job had been convicted of rape...
--------------------------------------------------
AB
what could possibly go wrong with living your life by following ancient laws written in dead languages by superstitious, racist, sexist barbarians who believed everything they couldn't explain in the world was magical.
--------------------------------------------------
KM
Yes, please! I need to carry God's will!
--------------------------------------------------
CL
Good point!!!
--------------------------------------------------
RE
This post is twisted logic.
It's about like saying since we're all going to die and meet God anyway why not speed the process along and make murder legal?
The implication here is that God must condone rape if a pregnancy is involved.
God doesn't condone rape. He creates life, so he condones life. Not the abuse of it.
There are plenty of situations in the Bible in which God uses sin to his end purpose. Consider the very mission of Christ for example. It certainly wasn't people who were acting in accordance with what was right in any sense that was the means by which Christ was crucified. That was sin alone.
Consider pharaoh, consider any number of people. You will see...
You don't have to serve God to serve his purpose, but it isn't an enviable position to be in either.
Even taking God out of the equation, to say that no good result can come from a bad action is simply not historically accurate.
A catalyst to perpetuate hate, that's what I see here. Don't use stupidity to fight stupidity. I understand the point you think you're making, it's just done very poorly like this.
--------------------------------------------------
JK
Uh, Roberto, it was Richard Mourdock from America's version of Hezbollah ("Party of God"), the GOP, who said that a pregnancy from rape was a gift from Jahweh. Get with the program!
--------------------------------------------------
RT
A Republican senator from Indiana stated that pregnancies that result from rape are "God's wll." Apparently he was trying to say all life is a gift from God - even those pregnancies but even still, he's wrong. This coupled with Todd Akin...smh.
--------------------------------------------------
RE
So he didn't say rape was a gift? Just life? OK I'm with the program, and I stand on my former post.
--------------------------------------------------
RE
I'm not republican, conservative, evangelical, or pro life, in affiliation. I get the point.
--------------------------------------------------
CBK
Roberto - if they are saying that the child was preordained by God - that it was his plan, and the child was the product of rape - how could the rape not have been part of God's plan?
--------------------------------------------------
RE
Foreknown, but not condoned. Didn't God know that Adam and Eve would fall, and yet created them anyway? And so here are you and I. A positive result from sin is not a condoning of sin. Paul talks about this when he says,"So should I sin all the more that God would be glorified? Heaven forbid.".
I'm certainly not defending what this guy said, or the way he said it. That's not my place, nor would I. I'm only saying that this is a poor choice of words to make the point.
--------------------------------------------------
RE
Christians who act like Christ never did or would are representing the Christian faith to the world everyday. They are undermining my witness by associating their warped views with those of God's.
So do I blame people who hate Christians? I suppose I can't and that is what truly sucks. People see me and learn of my faith and somehow I instantly become to them those people and my faith becomes theirs. It just isn't so.
To understand Christianity as is supposed to be, you have to foremost understand Christ as he was, without considering everyone whack job who claims to act in God's name to somehow provide divine authority for their own agenda.
It's disheartening, and tragic to me. So the best I can do is set things straight where I can and try to be graceful in the process. Selling God is not my job, he can do that himself, and I believe "sheep" would not feel so inclined to simply follow other "sheep" if they would only look up and follow the "shepherd".
God's peace to you.
d(-_-)b
--------------------------------------------------
CBK
"So do I blame people who hate Christians? I suppose I can't and that is what truly sucks. People see me and learn of my faith and somehow I instantly become to them those people and my faith becomes theirs. It just isn't so."
and that's exactly why we're here asking people like you to stand up and speak up against those who would warp the Word in order to advance a political or social agenda. the warping of the Word to condemn LGBT's and the fallout that lands on kids and young adults who find themselves outside the confines of a heterosexual identity is our primary reason for existence here. the admins are all survivors of extreme depression/suicidality because of the influence of anti-gay religious sentiment around us, we know firsthand how hard it can be to grow up gay in a community/church/family that vehemently condemns and denigrates people like us. we can't put it on the kids to fix this, we have to put it on the adults who have the power in these situations, which means calling out those who pervert a Gospel by having those who know better speak up and stand up for the next generation, as well as our own.
~ H
--------------------------------------------------
RE
I couldn't agree more with your motive, but judging from the responses above, it seems a lot of people would be lead astray by the suggestion that God condones rape, or that he is subject our sense of right and wrong. God is God and that is enough. He does not change, He changes us. One of my favorite movie quotes is from a movie called Junebug," God loves you just the way you are, but he loves you too much to let you stay that way."
You cover a good deal of ground in your comment above, more than I have time to go into, but I do have my own views on these things.
I address a good many of them on my blog. Not shameless self promotion here, but If you care to have a look. This is a good place to start to gain a little more understanding. It was my starting point of beginning to deal with so many of the issues I have with those within and without the church.:
http://victorygardenfailure.blogspot.com/p/observations-of-american-jesus.html
Failure in the Victory Garden:
Observations of the American Jesus
http://victorygardenfailure.blogspot.com/p/observations-of-american-jesus.html
d(-_-)b
--------------------------------------------------
DB
Roberto, very well said! (your comments above). I too am disheartened by the misrepresentation of Christ (and the Gospel of Christ) by humans in general (both by Liberals commonly and by overstatement of some Conservatives). Caveat - I am a social moderate and a financial conservative)...
--------------------------------------------------
RE
The misunderstanding and misrepresentation of the Gospel is not limited to politics, or cultures, or groups of any kind. The disciples walked daily with Jesus and still didn't get it most of the time.
All of us are guilty at some level or another.
Affording each other grace, and affording ourselves to be corrected with grace is a great start, but we HAVE to look at God's word as a whole and not the select parts we choose to support our causes, however well intentioned they may be.
We must consider all of God's character or consider none of it, otherwise we are fooling ourselves into believing what is simply not true. Consequently our minds may become darkened and we may indeed be given over to a reprobate mind for having quenched the spirit.
--------------------------------------------------
CBK
If liberals are misrepresenting what religion stands for, it's in response to fundamentalists trying to force their views through law. The responsibility lies with these 'moderates' who don't speak out and denounce the bigotry and hate spewed by these people because they want to be 'respectful' of their religious views.
--------------------------------------------------
RE
Each of us are responsible for our own actions and reactions, not those of another.
They hit me first, is no excuse and if you were my kid you'd be in trouble for even suggesting that was acceptable reasoning.They know better than that and they're grade schoolers.
Blame shifting is simply a justification for doing whatever we want and excusing our guilt. The problem is that doing so is a steady spiral downward, with increasing difficulty to get out as the weight of our guilt increases.
It is always the right time to do the right thing. - MLK
--------------------------------------------------
DB
Bigotry... it was Christian believers who spoke out against Darwinian Eugenics. ... and against slavery ... because they believed that all humans are created in the image of God... this is why I am not a full time slave today... however Liberals who support large government and increased taxes effectively make me a tax slave... Mmmm...
--------------------------------------------------
CBK
Roberto Esponja, that's not entirely true. There is guilt by association. There are accessories to crimes. There is a such thing as aiding and abetting.
This is not about "they hit me first". This is about "they created an atmosphere where LGBT children/teens are committing suicide at 5 times the rate of their straight peers". The problem with growing up gay has been created by those who would have their personal religious and moral views made into universal law and default societal standard. This can *only* be resolved by having those who created the situation stop perpetuating it.
--------------------------------------------------
RE
Oh, I thought this was about rape and baby killing. Sorry.
So as that goes, I suppose you are correct. I have a very diverse group of friends very few of whom believe as I do, however that "all men (people) are endowed by their creator with certain unalienable rights" should extend to all.
The rules of a religion are not applicable to those not of that religion, and as Christians we are told that we are not to judge those of another master. We are called to love and extend the grace that we have been extended in spite of our own sins, whatever they may be. I did not choose not to be gay, so I can't begin to imagine the struggle of those who did not choose to be gay.
But it is uncivilized and not art all representative of the God I worship to serve bias against them in the extension of love, mercy, and grace. There is no need for me to speak for God. He had spoken for himself. I am called to bare witness and proclaim truth, what others do with it is their own choice.
To that end, I an accountable for me and you for you.
We cannot hope to extinguish stereo types by perpetuating them however. Each person should be dealt with as an individual not as a collective, otherwise we are as guilty as they are in casting judgment.
--------------------------------------------------
RE
I've enjoyed our conversation, but switching topics midway seems to be avoiding the initial issue regarding the logic of the post. Since it was never addressed I assume it never will be. Regrettably I have do something besides debate, as it doesn't pay the bills. I'll check in later.
--------------------------------------------------
RE
I was just thinking about all of this, and it made me think of a poem,
The Rowing Song By Roald Dahl
Round the world and home again That's the sailor's way
Faster faster, faster faster
There's no earthly way of knowing
Which direction we are going
There's no knowing where we're rowing
Or which way the river's flowing
Is it raining, is it snowing
Is a hurricane a–blowing
Not a speck of light is showing
So the danger must be growing
Are the fires of Hell a–glowing
Is the grisly reaper mowing
Yes, the danger must be growing
For the rowers keep on rowing
And they're certainly not showing
Any signs that they are slowing.
--------------------------------------------------
CBK
"I am called to bare witness and proclaim truth"
wouldn't that fall in line with what I said about speaking up? Bearing witness is pretty much the same as speaking up, is it not?
but back to your original beef: why does the graphic depict a statement of God intending for women to get pregnant via rapes? Because that's literally what a senator said a couple of days ago. It's not about what the "proper" interpretation of the Bible is on this subject. The graphic is about what these elected officials are saying is God's Will and Plan and how their concept of morality, God, etc, should be made civil/criminal law for the entire nation (or at the very least, their state). If you think that their take on God's Will is incorrect, then take it up with Mourdock, Akin, Ryan, and others in the GOP that both actively seek to take away a woman's ability to make healthcare decisions for herself and are intent upon making their religious beliefs everyone's requisite beliefs.
--------------------------------------------------
DW
The meme uses a rhetorical argument that says,
Rape is God's will (or the result of rape is God's will)
Whatever is God's will is good
These men raped.
These men did good.
Therefore, these men should not be punished for doing good (God's will).
The logical fallacy of the argument is equivocation since it uses two different definitions for God's will. In the first proposition, the term refers to God's decretive will, that is, whatever is decreed by God (including the murder of Christ from the Christian perspective). The meaning then shifts to God's prescriptive will, those things commanded by God. The first sentence is false from a Judeo-Christian worldview using this definition, but true using the first one.
Either way, the equivocation in the argument makes the argument invalid.
--------------------------------------------------
RE
As for who said what, I will check it out.
But David Wendt's observation above states the case more concisely than my posts have.
Clearly I misunderstood your intended point and premise, due to a media void in my life.
Perhaps simply stating what you mean, so as to inform rather than sensationalize and mislead might prove to be more beneficial to your cause. That is all I was ever trying to say.
Thanks for not being a jerk and taking this in a bad direction, as so many if these conversations turn out.
I appreciate your heart, if not your means.
d(-_-)b
--------------------------------------------------
TS
This photo angers me. Shame on Mitch McConnell for spewing such a vile thought.
--------------------------------------------------
DW
Todd, I don't think my sister would find it a vile thought that rape babies are a gift of God since she was one.
--------------------------------------------------
TS
Its not the rape baby that is vile of course. Its the thought that a convicted rapist should be released as if they were doing Gods will. That is what I was referring to as a vile thought. Clearly rape is NEVER Gods will. And God bless your sister.
--------------------------------------------------
DW
Keep in mind that there is equivocation on the term "God's will." In Christianity, murder is not God's prescriptive will, but it was God's will that Christ should be murdered so that others would be saved by his death. Rape is never God's prescriptive will, but if one says it's never his decretive will is more than we can know.
--------------------------------------------------
TS
Frankly Im not intelligent enough to participate in this discussion but i definitely find it thought provoking. As a Christian myself I have a lot more to learn.
--------------------------------------------------
RE
By the way, the person who made the Odd Job comment: You literally made me laugh out loud. Thanks
--------------------------------------------------
RE
Hang in there Todd. Keep the focus on Christ, more than Christians, and you'll be fine.
No comments:
Post a Comment
You know you want to, so say it already...no one's going to be offended.