Business Time

Below is the dialogue in response to Kermit minding his own business.

I am identified as (ME)

(AP) In my judgment, that's not even a relevant comparison. My guess would be none of the refugees are Emanuel. There has to be a better way to handle it than one extreme or the other. Banning them vs letting them come willy nilly. The book of Numbers is one great lesson in mixing of peoples. When we get right down to it, have the open gates of America really made us stronger? Our faith as a nation has continually degraded. Why is that? Surely NOT from an influx of Christians.

(ME) As you have done it unto to the least of these, you have done it unto me... so no...
(ME) Faith as a nation is a contradiction. There is no national faith, by design.

Leviticus 19:33-34 ESV “When a stranger sojourns with you in your land, you shall not do him wrong. You shall treat the stranger who sojourns with you as the native among you, and you shall love him as yourself, for you were strangers in the land of Egypt: I am the Lord your God.

Matthew 25:35 ESV For I was hungry and you gave me food, I was thirsty and you gave me drink, I was a stranger and you welcomed me,

Exodus 22:21 ESV “You shall not wrong a sojourner or oppress him, for you were sojourners in the land of Egypt.

Malachi 3:5 ESV “Then I will draw near to you for judgment. I will be a swift witness against the sorcerers, against the adulterers, against those who swear falsely, against those who oppress the hired worker in his wages, the widow and the fatherless, against those who thrust aside the sojourner, and do not fear me, says the Lord of hosts.

Deuteronomy 27:19 ESV “‘Cursed be anyone who perverts the justice due to the sojourner, the fatherless, and the widow.’ And all the people shall say, ‘Amen.’

Hebrews 13:2 ESV Do not neglect to show hospitality to strangers, for thereby some have entertained angels unawares.

Zechariah 7:9-10 ESV “Thus says the Lord of hosts, Render true judgments, show kindness and mercy to one another, do not oppress the widow, the fatherless, the sojourner, or the poor, and let none of you devise evil against another in your heart.”

Ezekiel 47:22 ESV You shall allot it as an inheritance for yourselves and for the sojourners who reside among you and have had children among you. They shall be to you as native-born children of Israel. With you they shall be allotted an inheritance among the tribes of Israel.

Jeremiah 7:5-7 ESV “For if you truly amend your ways and your deeds, if you truly execute justice one with another, if you do not oppress the sojourner, the fatherless, or the widow, or shed innocent blood in this place, and if you do not go after other gods to your own harm, then I will let you dwell in this place, in the land that I gave of old to your fathers forever.

Leviticus 25:35 ESV “If your brother becomes poor and cannot maintain himself with you, you shall support him as though he were a stranger and a sojourner, and he shall live with you.

 Proverbs 31:8-9 ESV Open your mouth for the mute, for the rights of all who are destitute. Open your mouth, judge righteously, defend the rights of the poor and needy.

Deuteronomy 10:18 ESV  He executes justice for the fatherless and the widow, and loves the sojourner, giving him food and clothing.

Philippians 3:20 ESV But our citizenship is in heaven, and from it we await a Savior, the Lord Jesus Christ,

Matthew 5:46-47 ESV For if you love those who love you, what reward do you have? Do not even the tax collectors do the same? And if you greet only your brothers, what more are you doing than others? Do not even the Gentiles do the same?

Exodus 23:9 ESV “You shall not oppress a sojourner. You know the heart of a sojourner, for you were sojourners in the land of Egypt.

Deuteronomy 26:5 ESV “And you shall make response before the Lord your God, ‘A wandering Aramean was my father. And he went down into Egypt and sojourned there, few in number, and there he became a nation, great, mighty, and populous.

Luke 13:29-30 ESV And people will come from east and west, and from north and south, and recline at table in the kingdom of God. And behold, some are last who will be first, and some are first who will be last.”

Deuteronomy 10:18-19 ESV He executes justice for the fatherless and the widow, and loves the sojourner, giving him food and clothing. Love the sojourner, therefore, for you were sojourners in the land of Egypt.

Mark 12:30-31 ESV And you shall love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind and with all your strength.’ The second is this: ‘You shall love your neighbor as yourself.’ There is no other commandment greater than these.”

Isaiah 16:3-4 ESV “Give counsel; grant justice; make your shade like night at the height of noon; shelter the outcasts; do not reveal the fugitive; let the outcasts of Moab sojourn among you; be a shelter to them from the destroyer. When the oppressor is no more, and destruction has ceased, and he who tramples underfoot has vanished from the land,

Leviticus 19:10 ESV And you shall not strip your vineyard bare, neither shall you gather the fallen grapes of your vineyard. You shall leave them for the poor and for the sojourner: I am the Lord your God.

"Behold, this was the guilt of your sister Sodom: she and her daughters had arrogance, abundant food and careless ease, but she did not help the poor and needy. Ezekiel 16:49

(ME) Need more for your national faith?
(ME) The weak faith of the "American Christian" has NOTHING to do with the strength of faith that foreigners have. That my friend is bald faced racist fear and blameshifting.

(DB) Now see, Roberto? I knew I couldn't take you anywhere!!  AP is actually an awesome individual - as are you!

(ME) I'm sure he is, and he certainly motivated me to do a little research, for which I am thankful. My intention isn't to attack, my apologies if I have done so. As for the "as you are"... as a comedian once said. I wouldn't be a member of any club that would have me as a member. (thanks)

(AP) Roberto, I don't even get the point of all your posts on this? It seems you are arguing for mercy and acceptance for the refugees, but missing my points completely. So, in passionate pursuit of Christ's love let me try again.

1. The meme Don posted is NOT relevant, it's silly to me. It seems to reference Joseph and Mary, who were NOT refugees, not fleeing persecution and anyone who reads Luke will note they were not turned away for any other reason than lack of space.

2. I never said NOT to help the refugees, my point is we need to be smart about it. Like it or not, not all people are going to serve the Lord or be open to the message of salvation. Demon controlled people are everywhere. Even in some churches.

3. I don't agree that we have never had a national faith. The Great Seal of the United States bears two affirmations: Novus ordo seclorum, “A new society for this world,” and Annuit Coeptis, “our undertaking is favored.”

They both suggest the American dream and self-understanding. This was to be a new nation. Here people would begin anew. A new type of society would emerge, one that had not existed since the original creation. This was to be Zion. Here men would realize all earthly hopes. Our favorite patriotic hymn has said it for generations. This was the place of sunlit purple hills and of winds rustling the tall golden grain and fruited plains. “America, America, God shed his grace on thee and crown thy good with brotherhood from sea to shining sea.”

We are now a nation of chaos, we have religious freedom that is unprecedented...and we are worse off for it.

(ME) You make some very valid points. let me get home, eat something, tuck the kidsin and hit you back in a bit. thanks for replying though.

(ME) So let's start at the beginning... In a narrow sense you are correct about certain technicalities of what is said in the meme. It is by virtue of semantics incorrect. However, with the focus of being correct, the larger point is being missed, plus there are some fundamental issues with your arguments as well.

In the Nativity story, you are correct in that no one was in that moment fleeing persecution, but only in that moment, as persecution was impending.

What drove the people to return to their hometowns was certainly not matter of convenience or melancholy but one of fear.

So while no one was being persecuted per se, at least not at that point in the story had Joseph and Mary not returned to Joseph's hometown for the "census" they most certainly would have been persecuted. So the greater show of grace in hospitality is exemplified here in that much and the attempted point here proves far less relevant, if not irrelevant all together.

I would have to agree with your keen senses, that in all likelihood none of the refugees intent on coming to America are Emmanuel. However neither was Emmanual seeking refuge in the nativity narrative either.

That would in point of fact have been Joseph and Mary, not Emmanual, since he had not yet been born. Consequently that logic truly bears no relevance to the argument presented as such here.

As for the justification of being turned away for lack of accommodations or resource, those were decisions made by business owners and driven by money.

America also being business and money driven lacks neither resources or accommodation, and under the guise of divine approval seems to be making the same choice. This argument seems to fly in the face of any supposed undefined national faith, even one vaguely alluded to in the dead language of Latin.

If semantics alone is to be considered then the statements as such could be Christian or Muslim or Jewish or anything for that matter.

Taken at face value however they could also be very reasonably attributed as being statments based more in egocentricity and self-righteousness rather than being religious or faith based.

If we are to use the argument of national heritage to justify our reasoning of why we should keep out foreigners, or site books of the Old Testament as a justification for refraining from the intermingling of persons from varying cultures and religions, both of those arguments are very easily refutable as well, each within their own context.

The very nature and birth of America is founded in violence and bloodshed, driven by greed under the guise of the "American Dream".

So the degradation of any national faith seems inherent to its origin and any personal choices to proclaim or deny one's faith certainly can't be blamed on anyone but the individual making those choices.

Blaming other cultures for diluting your faith means deciphering a fair amount of the Old Testament as much of its content and indeed the development of the Jewish faith is owed to other cultures.

So America is without argument, a land of immigrants, founded in the very essence of intermingling of people of various cultures. If we are prone to quote American rhetoric, allow me to present this, and perhaps you may be able to reconcile how this fits within the logic: "Inscription on the Statue of Liberty" "Give me your tired, your poor,  Your huddled masses, yearning to breath free, The wretched refuse of your teeming shore, Send these, the homeless, tempest tost to me, I lift my lamp beside the golden door." - Emma Lazarus

The purpose of my many posts of both Old and New Testament Scriptures is primarily to exemplify that the Bible clearly has a great deal to say about the treatment that the followers of his word should exemplify to foreigners, sojourners and strangers alike, all underscored with Jesus stating point blank as we have treated the LEAST of these, so we have treated Him.

Scripture also has a great deal to say about defending the defenseless and providing for those who cannot provide for themselves. If required I could cite many of those verses too, however it doesn't seem that it would be required here.

I'm sincerely not trying to be argumentative. I'm only stating what I see here. If you can enlighten and correct my thinking I welcome it.

That said thought, let's face it there's always a good reason not to do the right thing and generally far more logical arguments are found in support of not doing the right thing.

Consider how long it took the church to speak out for the Jews in WWII.

I suppose this is where (we) rely on our illogical faith, since there are many examples in the New Testament where logic of this world if followed would have disallowed many of the miracles that Jesus performed.

There is a part of me that would love to agree with you. The problem however is one inherent to Christianity, but not exclusively so. As I see it, it is this:

Applying the standards of the next life in this one, it is logical that one will not make sense in the context of the other since they are contrary in nature.

So allow me to digress for one moment when I say, if one claims only the title of human there are certain answers to certain questions, if one only claims the title of American then there are different questions and different answers to be found, but if one claims the title of Christian then there is almost no question and only one answer.

It seems to me that the fundamental issues then to be rectified, and those which I wrestle with myself, is where does the greater loyalty lie within that triangle and how do we reconcile living for another world while trapped in this one?

I understand clearly that you didn't say a good number of things, but in terms of how to help, that too was unsaid.

I hope this all makes sense.
It's been a long day and I'm beat.

(ME) I just realized that you stated the national faith is the American Dream and Self-Understanding. My apologies you may be very correct indeed.